| Author | Post |
|---|
druffe
AGG member
|
Thu Mar 6th, 2008 04:08 am |
|
I'm helping to research windows in a 1904 Catholic Church in Delaware and on closer inspection the bible passage on the scroll seems to be in French. My thoughts would be English, Latin or possible German if imported. I've attached photos and hope someone may have run into this before. Any ideas? Thanks!Doreen Ruffe
Attached Image (viewed 108 times):
|
mmezalick
AGG member
|
Posted: Thu Mar 6th, 2008 10:02 am |
|
Yes it is French, it is Paul's Second Letter to the Corinthians
This is a close translation;
The Epistle to the Corinthians
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through the will of God, to the assembly of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints who are in the whole of Achaia: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort;
It is interesting that the writer left out the words " and Timothy our brother" which in some new testament versions comes in the first sentence after the word "God" as in;
"Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through the will of God, and Timothy our brother"
I hope this helps.
Michael
|
mmezalick
AGG member
|
Thu Mar 6th, 2008 10:19 am |
|
Keep in mind that French is used in France, Belgium, and Switzerland as well.
Michael
|
druffe
AGG member
|
Posted: Thu Mar 6th, 2008 02:00 pm |
|
| But why French? Does it represent Paul or the studio's designer/artist?
|
Krueger
Director
|
Thu Mar 6th, 2008 02:03 pm |
|
Doreen, Have you tried to find out if the first priest was French....or the patron for the window was French, or some community connection with France?
Barbara in Michigan
|
mmezalick
AGG member
|
Posted: Thu Mar 6th, 2008 02:10 pm |
|
It is the image of St. Paul, the sword gives it away as it is the standard symbol for Paul.
I would think that the french wording may be a indication of where the studio was located when it was made. As I said it could have been France, Belgium, or Switzerland.
There are others that may have a better insight to the location / country of the studio if you could post a picture with the entire window, or at least more of the design.
I would check about the French connection but if the rose window is high enough, most people would not be able to read the wording. So the designer / painter just put in the words in the language he / she was familiar with.
What is the name of the church?
Michael
|
mmezalick
AGG member
|
Thu Mar 6th, 2008 02:27 pm |
|
So, now for more interesting stuff. A quick search on google came up with this metal. I wonder who designed it first. It would be an interesting item to research the multiple uses of an image. I know that Helene Weis did something like that years ago. Just some fun stuff.
Michael
Attached Image (viewed 97 times):
|
David Crane
AGG member
|
Posted: Thu Mar 6th, 2008 02:31 pm |
|
Hi Doreen,
Since the church is in Delaware there might be a DuPont conection.
|
druffe
AGG member
|
Thu Mar 6th, 2008 02:31 pm |
|
The Church is St. Paul's Catholic Church in Delaware City, DE. The memorials all seems to be Irish or German names and the priest also believes the area was Irish Catholic at the turn of the 20th century. French doesn't seem logical for the location. I do agree this window is high up in the rear of the church, most would not be able to read the passage.
I've posted a larger view, each window including this one does have a painted rondel and the surrounding glass is very victorian in style and design.
Attached Image (viewed 99 times):
|
mmezalick
AGG member
|
Posted: Thu Mar 6th, 2008 03:21 pm |
|
I am be wrong, as I am very often, but would it be correct to assume ( we all know where that get you) that if a window is made with opalescent glass that is 99% sure to be American made?
I have often wondered about that.
Michael
|
Krueger
Director
|
Thu Mar 6th, 2008 04:35 pm |
|
Yes Michael, I would agree with you about opalescent glass, but in this case there are additional research options - I just looked at the church website and see there was/is a church cemetery. Doreen could try and find the graves for the Myers and see what kind of iconography was used....also are there any French sounding names of other people buried there? The current church was built 1905/1906. Is the architect known, and if so, what other churches might he have designed and then look at their stained glass as perhaps something might be signed. So, it is not quick and easy and may take quite a while. Doreen, you had asked the MSGC about the Quaker City Stained Glass Studio. Do these Delaware windows have the same "look" at other Quaker City windows?
Barbara in Michigan
|
mmezalick
AGG member
|
Posted: Thu Mar 6th, 2008 05:13 pm |
|
Barbara,
You may be going down a different path by focusing on the use of the french.
As I stated the french language is also spoken in some form in Switzerland and another version in Belgium.
I would even go as far as to question the idea that the windows were made anywhere else but the US, based on the type of glass.
The History of the church and the general area is mostly Irish and English.
In the 1850's the English Catholic church used Latin and French in their writings.
That area of the Catholic church was founded by Bishop John Carroll, the first American catholic bishop.
A Jesuit priest had a strong tie to England and actually work with Benjamin Franklin adding the freedom of religion into the Constitution
It could a carry over from that to the Irish church.
It also may be something the US studio preferred to use.
Quaker City Stained Glass made some windows for a church not far from this around 1900. They are in Smyrna , DE which is just down the road a bit.
Michael
|
Krueger
Director
|
Thu Mar 6th, 2008 05:25 pm |
|
Michael, I am not "focusing" on the use of French, but as it is an obvious clue, then it needs to be explored. I do agree the windows are probably American in origin, but I just looked and John Carroll died in 1815, long before this church was built and perhaps his influence had waned. As Detroit has just a strong French background, who the donors were had a lot to do with the "context" of their memorial windows in the Catholic churches. So, I would concentrate on the patrons of the windows. Perhaps they had a French/Belgium/Swiss background and this was the family way of memoralizing it, regardless is it is up high and difficult to see, or not. But, these are the interesting aspects of researching a church and the windows. So I hope Doreen will keep the Bulletin Board informaed as to what she eventually discovers!!
Barbara K.
|
mmezalick
AGG member
|
Posted: Thu Mar 6th, 2008 05:51 pm |
|
Barbara,
I agree that every bit of information is a clue to something, That's part of the fun.
Here's a bit more;
Major ancestry groups reported by Delaware City residents include:
Irish 19%
German 16%
English 13%
Black or African American - 10%
Italian 8%
Polish 4%
Scottish 2%
French 2%
Scotch Irish 2%
Dutch 2%
Welsh 2%
Ukrainian - 1%
Swedish 1%
Puerto Rican 1%
Hungarian 1%
Russian 1%
Michael
|
Krueger
Director
|
Thu Mar 6th, 2008 06:17 pm |
|
mmezalick wrote: So, now for more interesting stuff. A quick search on google came up with this metal. I wonder who designed it first. It would be an interesting item to research the multiple uses of an image. I know that Helene Weis did something like that years ago. Just some fun stuff.
Michael
At least 2 of the "attributes" of St. Paul are in the Delaware window as well as the medal Michael posted. A book, Saints in Art, has this to say - St. Paul had a noble face, was a balding man with a long black beard holding a book of letters he wrote, and a long sword with which he was martyred. These characteristics were defined in the 5th century and have been constant ever since. I would image some place there is a painting of St. Paul exactly like that in the window and the medal. I will try and find Helene's article to see if she has something there.
Barbara
|
mmezalick
AGG member
|
Posted: Thu Mar 6th, 2008 06:27 pm |
|
Barbara,
The article is entitled, " Those Old, Familiar Faces"
It is in the Fall 1991 issue of the Stained Glass Quarterly p 204
It really shows how images are used over and over.
Michael
|
glasman
Director
| Joined: | Mon Jan 7th, 2008 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 59 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Thu Mar 6th, 2008 10:20 pm |
|
Doreen,
Is there any other painted glass in the windows other than the medallions and the memorial inscriptions?
If not, they may have come from a wholesale painting stained glass studio. This may be their standard 'St. Paul', copied from another source as Barbara suggested.
This is a very common practice with the mass production studios in the southeast.
John
|
druffe
AGG member
|
Posted: Thu Mar 6th, 2008 10:23 pm |
|
Okay P.I.'s, you all bring up valid points. Barbara this church was not the Quaker City Stained Glass Works windows I had asked about, those are from a local (to me local!) church in Newtown, PA. I don't have a studio name from the priest. I was asked by the person making repairs as to why the scripture may be in French. I was equally curious so I thought I'd pose it to everyone. I know the other windows, (okay another photo attached!) are in memory of mainly Irish ancestors, Murphy, Duffy, Mulligan, Cush?, Cunning. So the idea of French ancestors seems highly unlikely, but I can see where you're going with your approach. Michael, the likeness of St. Paul in the window to the metal is amazing! I think your question about US produced is interesting, were the rondels imported and then leaded into a window at a studio in the US? That's what I was thinking. All this info put together must mean something! I can dig further at the church, but my experience, especially in areas like Delaware City; they are barely maintaining their contemporary records, none the less their historic records. David, visiting the area, I don't think the Dupont's had much to do in Delaware City, it's not like Winterthur. I'll see if I can come up with more info from the church, now I think we all need to know. Another good reason for a US Census! Plug Plug!Doreen
Attached Image (viewed 87 times):
|
mmezalick
AGG member
|
Fri Mar 7th, 2008 11:21 am |
|
I found these images that not not exact but show similarities
Both are by Rembrandt
Michael
Attached Image (viewed 67 times):
|
mmezalick
AGG member
|
Posted: Fri Mar 7th, 2008 11:27 am |
|
| Second Picture Attached Image (viewed 68 times):
|
Current time is 05:31 pm | Page: 1 2   |
|
| |
