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| Author | Post |
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bbates
Non AGG Member
| Joined: | Fri Sep 28th, 2007 |
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| Posts: | 78 |
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Tue May 20th, 2008 05:35 pm |
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We have been having much greif lately at our shop. Various workers believe that putty (what we call grout) can be made in vast number of ways and still be good. I want to see what the standards are... How do you mix your putty?
This is our recipe, Please! post yours.
1 Part linseed oil
1 Part turpentine
2 parts 1012 glazing compound
1 part whiting
We add more whiting to thicken and more linseed oil to thin.
Now, this is our "written" recipe. We just realized that the worker that has been mixing it for years does it whilly-nilly, off the cuff, and the consistensy is just not there. And he argues with us every time we try to address this, of course the new owners, just shrug it all off. So the few of us that actually care our on our own here. He uses like a gallon of the 1012 gray glazing compound, but then just like a cup of linseed oil and turpentine, and no whiting. then when it gets thick in the bucket, he justs adds more turpentine...
Please help us....
-ben
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Adam
AGG Member
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Posted: Wed May 21st, 2008 12:03 am |
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Last time I checked you can fire some one for not obeying orders. But for the sake of being a nice guy, There is a topic in Repair and restoration labeled putty I believe Victor Rothman offered his recipe and others waxed poetically about the virtues of Atlas Wonder Putty( I've had the oppurtunity to try it and it is a very nice putty) . Geoffrey Wallace from Australia also has a formulae that he is often willing to share, If you look in members, his username is gwsg. Hope that helps,
Adam
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Vic
AGG Member
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Wed May 21st, 2008 12:12 am |
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First DAP says on the can "not for stained glass". I don't know why, but if the company says not for use, I'll take their word for it.
Next linseed oil and whiting is putty. So your guy is just adding putty to putty.
Here is the link to the last putty talk
http://www.americanglassguild.com/forum6/359.html
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bbates
Non AGG Member
| Joined: | Fri Sep 28th, 2007 |
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| Posts: | 78 |
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Posted: Wed May 21st, 2008 03:37 pm |
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thank you for the redirect, it was helpful. I would still be curious as to know if of all the various putties used. We call it grout...
btw, I called DAP about the usage and the warning on the back of the can. They say do not use for stained/leaded glass, but they mean as a glazing compound... as in "into the frame" I discussed with person from dap as to our usage and pros and cons. She was with me about being very stingy with the thinner, it would cause the grout (putty) to dry too quickly, as is stated in the previous "putty" post... She didn't see any problem using it for this method. Their concerned was with the adhesion to the frame and glass and lead, but with grouting, the putty is shoved into the lead, and pinched into place.
I am going to take some time to mix the whiting and linseed oil stuff in the near future. What is the difference between whiting a plaster of paris and what are the pros and cons? We only use the whiting to brush on after the grouting and if needed to thicken up the grout.
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artfem
Administrator
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Wed Jun 4th, 2008 07:12 pm |
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Ben
I do not know why there is the desire in our field to mix our own putty. There are a number of reasons not to, the first being what you described above, there is often little or no consistency to the materials used or how it is mixed together.
Secondly, it is very difficult to be consistent when mixing small amounts of anything. The larger the batch, the less imapct a small mistake has on the ratio of materials being mixed. Granted, mixing putty isn't brain surgery, usually nobody dies. But why not use a commercial product with more quality controls?
Thirdly, in most putty/cement mixes, it is important to have a variety of sizes in the particulate (whiting) that is suspended in the binder (organic oil). Unless a small studio goes to great lengths, it will have no idea of the sizes or ratio of the particulate. Large putty companies can do this. Again, a better mix and more consistency.
Some things to know about putty are: the organic oil (linseed oil) does not "dry" it polymerizes. Upon exposure to the atmosphere, the linseed oil reacts with oxygen and the fatty acid chains link with each other to form an extremely large cross-linked polymer. The best way to keep your putty fresh in the can, is to level out the surface a pour a half inch or so of water on the top of the putty. It seals the linseed oil from contact with the atmosphere and easily pours off when you need to use the putty. Soy and fish oils polymerize more slowly then boiled linseed oil and are thereby, I think, better suited for our purposes.
You speak about adhesion. I think this is also important for putty. I do not subscribe to the school that believes putty holds a window together. However, a degree of adhesion is needed between the putty and the glass and the lead, or leaks may develop when the panel flexes.
In my opinion, you are alwys better off using a commercially manufactured, organic oil putty that has no driers or plaster of paris. Plaster iof paris absorbs water is a very reactive material. I would not use it in any putty. I think one of the best on the market is Wonder Putty made by Atlas Putty of Tinley Park, IL. It is also available from Somaca Glazing supplies.
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Adam
AGG Member
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Posted: Thu Jun 5th, 2008 01:46 am |
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Somaca is no more. They were bought out by CRLawrence.
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Gene Mallard
AGG Member
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Fri Oct 9th, 2009 01:38 pm |
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I've been meaning to post to this thread for a while, but was having login issues. Anyway here's what I discovered.
CRL ALL Purpose Putty Catalog No. 533QTW is a linseed oil putty that seems to be just what the doctor ordered.
The irony of this is that I decided to buy this putty out of the blue because I needed something to glaze a bunch of windows with, and didn't want to use my precious home-made mix (that I got from Vic) for this purpose. I have an account with CRL, and since the local businesses only sell DAP (which rhymes appropriately with the substance that I would compare it to), so I figured CRL HAD to have a better product in stock. Only when I got it and read the label did I notice that I had stumbled on to something good.
Ingredients: Limestone , Calcium Carbonate, Raw Linseed Oil, Boiled linseed oil, 350 Thinner.
I'm working on my second case of it since first purchasing it at the beginning of the summer, and I am thoroughly satisfied with it. I have used it for both cementing and glazing and I am very pleased with its performance in both applications.
The one issue I've had is that when it arrives, it is a little too stiff to work with, almost as if it's not fresh enough, it also has a light skin on top, and sometimes a puddle of oil on top of that. Since I always order it in cases of 1 quart containers, I usually warm in in the microwave for 30-60 seconds, then I dump it into a larger container, add some boiled linseed oil to thin it, then take my mixer to it. If heavy thinning is required I'll use a little of the raw linseed oil too, which I assume will help retain some sort of balance to the mix.
Anyhoo, I figure if everyone starts ordering this stuff, it's going to start arriving fresher. So now you know; my motivation is purely selfish. LOL.
Hope this helps.
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bkessler
AGG Member
| Joined: | Thu Nov 16th, 2006 |
| Location: | Loveland, Ohio USA |
| Posts: | 28 |
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Posted: Mon Oct 12th, 2009 01:49 am |
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I know why we continue to make our own putty: money. The raw ingredients for putty are very inexpensive. I looked into the Atlas putty mentioned earlier and was put off by the (relative) expense and shipping costs (mixed putty is very heavy). Perhaps if there was a distributor nearby where I could pick it up and save on shipping, I might feel differently.
Our volume of work is low, so I appreciate the ability to make what I need when I need it.
I also wonder about the need for putty when every window we build is protected by exterior glazing. Mind you, I will continue to putty our work because I like the "feel" of a puttied window and I don't want to pioneer the non-puttied approach. But I do wonder "why putty?" when the elements will never be a factor.
Our recipe: equal parts boiled linseed oil & mineral spirits, calcium carbonate and a pinch of black mortar tint.
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bbates
Non AGG Member
| Joined: | Fri Sep 28th, 2007 |
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Mon Oct 12th, 2009 12:10 pm |
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Strength, to seal in case of leaks, etc. to act as a part of a "unit" in application with stormglazing, Shock absorber, to null the effects of the flux, to seal the lead from rapid corrosion.
I'm sure that I am missing some obvious reasons for putty. But these are the first that come to my mind. We don't putty if the application call for the window to be sealed in a unit. Don't ask my why, but we call putty, "grout." I think it's because we also putty or glaze windows into frames, and we use this alternate term for clarification in discussions.
We have always mixed our own. But after the company was sold, I re-examined our recipe, and like many old recipes (origin unknown) in could use improvement. We can't realy mix ours as cheaply as we can buy it form our distributer. We have been using wonder putty from CR laurence/Somaca.
Ironically, not one day before this thread was posted, one of my cowrkers were asking me about putty. He's an "old timer" and doesn't like the commercial stuff. BUt then again, he always mixed turpintine into the homemade putty, which as I made him aware, is a big NO-NO. I just told him to dilute it with boiled linseed oil, but do it carefully.
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CZL
AGG Member
| Joined: | Thu Oct 9th, 2008 |
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| Posts: | 50 |
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Posted: Mon Oct 12th, 2009 04:12 pm |
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Putty holds the window together!
Regardless of weather the window has
protection glass or not, putty will make it stiff and hold it perpendicular to the force of gravity.
If done properly it will extend the life of the original lead work to fifty years or more depending on the structure it is in stalled in.
R.H. Buenz taught me to use RAW LINSEED OIL, WHITING, AND LAMP BLACK for color. Any thing else makes it dry faster and defeats its purpose. That purpose according to him was to stay viscus as long as possible, to float the glass in the lead. That is not to say, make the putty too wet and runny. It should have the consistency of warm peanut butter. It then should be scrubbed under the lead came on both sides. The came should then be crimped down over it.
If you have the time do one side at a time, and let it sit for several days. That lets the putty form a sort of dry scum between the lead and glass. When you putty the opposite side the putty form the first side will seep out less. That method according to the Maestro, (Mr. Buenz) will give you a German job, good for at least 70 years, time to get out of town before the customer changes his or her mind. There is a set of windows in Frenchtown N.J. that I personally puttied that way in 1956, and they are as straight as the day we put them in. Like every thing else he taught me, it works, if you do it right.
C.Z. Lawrence, AMGP
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Hallie Monroe
AGG Member
| Joined: | Thu Jan 17th, 2008 |
| Location: | New York USA |
| Posts: | 37 |
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Mon Nov 2nd, 2009 01:05 pm |
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| CZ you forgot your secret ingredient, the love of a good dog!
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