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Flattening
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 Posted: Thu Jul 24th, 2008 04:56 pm
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Roberto
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Back in April, Adam brought up the question of flattening deflected areas of a window.

I thought it would be interesting to show some photos of a project I have just completed involving three, very nice, Renaissance-style windows. All three windows showed severe deflection at the bottom and the top, where the typical stacked horizontal borders, and its lead, hinged. The lead is about 5/32 of an inch, with a very interesting colonial profile and in very good condition. Two other studios had told the Church that the windows had to be completely releaded. I had to argue my case and try to educate the client during several meetings, showing past projects where I flattened windows, and convince them that just because the top and bottom sections of the windows were deflected, that alone was not a reason to completely relead them. Well, as is not always the case, they listened, and at a substantial savings from what the other two studios had quoted them, the windows are flat, the support system has been augmented thus preventing the deflected areas to fail again, and the original lead intact.

I hope the photos are clear and telling.

Looking forward to seeing everyone at the AGG conference next week!
Roberto

Attached Image (viewed 287 times):

Exterior view of deflection.jpg



 Posted: Thu Jul 24th, 2008 04:58 pm
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Roberto
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Exterior view of deflection.

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Exterior view of deflection. jpg.jpg



 Posted: Thu Jul 24th, 2008 04:59 pm
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Roberto
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Applying fins to exterior of window.

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Applying fins to exterior.jpg



 Posted: Thu Jul 24th, 2008 05:00 pm
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Roberto
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Fin at top section.

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Fins at top .jpg



 Posted: Thu Jul 24th, 2008 05:00 pm
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Roberto
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Fin at bottom section.

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Fins at bottom 1.jpg



 Posted: Thu Jul 24th, 2008 05:04 pm
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Roberto
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Close up of the interior of one of the window after attachment of fins to the exterior. Notice how the fins are virtually invisible from the interior.

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close up interior bottom.jpg



 Posted: Thu Jul 24th, 2008 05:05 pm
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Roberto
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Overall after flattening and repair.

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interior view overall.jpg



 Posted: Sat Nov 15th, 2008 07:53 pm
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dcs-ny
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we have a similar situation in our studio. Can you recommend a metal source or supplier for the fins that you made.  Thanks.



 Posted: Sun Nov 16th, 2008 03:27 pm
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Roberto
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Doris,
I buy the brass material for the fins from Copper & Brass Sales http://www.copperandbrass.com They are a national company so they might have an office in NY state. They cut the strips from a 4'x8' sheet of .032 HH (half hard) brass, therefore you can get the fins in a variety of widths, depending on the application. I typically get the, 1/2" and 3/4" wide, but have also used 1" wide at times. You have to tin both sides of the fins with solder before attaching them to the window. Also, it's important to keep a wet rag adjacent to the area you are applying the fins to. I always try to bend them as needed before soldering them to the lead.
Good luck

Roberto



 Posted: Sun Nov 16th, 2008 05:29 pm
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Krueger
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Roberto, I think it would be interesting to know of the earliest situations where fins were used (by you or whomever) and how the windows are faring .  I realize it will take 50 years to truely be a "test", but if it was known where the windows are, someone/we could take photos for prospective clients.  Thanks.

Barbara in Michigan



 Posted: Sun Nov 16th, 2008 07:21 pm
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Vic
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Tiffany was doing it 100 years ago. Those windows seem to be fine. There was also an English window I saw once (photo)that had fins in the mid 1800's

 

I get brass "fins" at Manhattan Brass and Copper, 718-381-5300.

They call it brass coil. I get .020 and .032 thickness, from 1/4" -3/4"wide.

Ask for cuttoff coils, or left overs

Attached Image (viewed 219 times):

DSCN2447.JPG

Last edited on Sun Nov 16th, 2008 07:33 pm by Vic



 Posted: Sun Nov 16th, 2008 07:35 pm
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Vic
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more fins

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DSCN2213.JPG



 Posted: Sun Nov 16th, 2008 07:35 pm
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Vic
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more fins

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DSCN2452.JPG



 Posted: Sun Nov 16th, 2008 07:37 pm
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Vic
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model railroad track in blue inscription

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DSCN2209.JPG



 Posted: Sun Nov 16th, 2008 07:39 pm
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Krueger
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Vic, these look to be all from the same window, but at different angles?  Thanks.  Also, were the fins in place of horizontal reinforcing bars, or in addition to.

Barbara



 Posted: Sun Nov 16th, 2008 07:50 pm
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Vic
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The original saddle bars were and are in the front of the window. I added horizontal 1/8" thick horizontal brass rebar on the rear of the window directly behind the saddle bars. To the rebar I attach the fins. It makes for a very strong  "continuous" support system.

Yes all the photos are the rear of the same window



 Posted: Sun Nov 16th, 2008 07:58 pm
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Krueger
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Vic, There have been many Tiffany windows that have sagged badly.  Can we assume no fins were used ?  So was there a certain timeframe when theTiffany firm used fins?...would you know what the time frame might be? 

Barbara



 Posted: Sun Nov 16th, 2008 08:00 pm
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Vic
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As far as I know Tiffany used them only on the foiled windows. Foiled windows started to appair around 1901



 Posted: Mon Nov 17th, 2008 09:04 pm
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Roberto
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The earliest application of fins I have seen was on a window I worked on from the Tirolian Glass Masters dated 1860. These fins were attached to the interior of the window rather to the exterior.

As Vic has said, Tiffany used fins on his foiled windows starting 100 years ago and they seem to have withheld time, gravity and ...critics.

Since this topic has been brought up again, I would like to discuss the difference I see in foil windows versus leaded windows. I feel fortunate to have been involved in the repair and restoration of stained glass because, by working on old windows I get to see where they failed, determine how and why, and learn how can I make it better. So the following are accounts from my observation.

I have yet to see a Tiffany window fabricated all in copper foil, with no support bars and only fins to the exterior, suffer deterioration and deflection the way some leaded glass windows have.

There are many of Tiffany’s foiled windows that are wonderful examples. The first to come to mind and probably the best example is the Arlington Street Church in Boston. A Church full of Tiffany windows, probably a dozen, each measuring approximately 4’ wide x 7’ high. Heavily plated, foiled, no support bars to the interior but an amazing web of intelligently and artistically attached fins to the exterior. The windows have never been removed for repair and are in good condition.

A few years ago I worked for a local church where a window from the 1930s, measuring approximately 3’ x 7.5’, was collapsing. The lead was so deteriorated it could be peeled off with my fingernails. The severe deflection was astonishing as there was a support bar every 12 “, yet the window and its lead failed.

Same church, two windows down, same elevation. Two Tiffany windows same dimension as the leaded window. One fabricated in 1905, the second one in 1906. All copper foil, three to four layers, no support bars to the interior, only fins to the exterior. Condition: Flat as a board and as strong as it probably was the day it left the studio in the 1900s.

I recently had in my studio a very large Tiffany landscape window measuring approximately 4’ wide x 8’ high. Once again, all foil, three layers, no support bars, just fins to the exterior side. As flat as it was the day it was installed and just as strong. No deterioration, no deflection. The reason I had it is that the window was removed from its original location in 1967 and donated to a university library where it has been since then. It was being moved into a new location and it had some cracked glass, which was probably caused in the 1967 move. They also needed it safely stored for a short period.

I am not promoting copper foil in our craft. As a matter of fact, I don’t think I would fabricate a window with foil. It just seems so time consuming and I would go absolutely nuts.

But the question is why hasn’t it been accepted? The only argument I hear is that “lead has been used in stained glass windows for centuries whereas copper foil has only been used for 100 years or so”. I would like to hear others' opinions on the subject on this Bulletin Board. Am I alone in my analogy?
Thank you,
Roberto Rosa
Serpentino Stained Glass



 Posted: Tue Nov 18th, 2008 07:29 pm
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Roberto:

Is it the case that the (nice, flat) plated, foiled windows also have substantial overlapping of glass pieces; i.e.: one larger piece may cover several smaller ones, thus making that area even stronger than fins (or competent construction) alone may do?

- Tod



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