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Krueger
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Someone has contacted me regarding a posting from earlier this year regarding one Henry Birkenstock, a stained glass studio owner in the early 1900's in New York/New Jersey.  She is a member of the Birkenstock family and would be interested in sharing information.  Please let me know of your interest in this man and I will put you in touch with this person.  Thanks.

Barbara K. in Michigan

Vic
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He was in Mt Vernon NY. There is a church near my shop that is fully glazed by him

Krueger
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Vic, can you provide the name of the church so I can send it on to her.  Thanks.

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http://mostholytrinityyonkers.com/8627.html

 

photo gallery has lots of stained glass

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Good grief!

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Here is another Church that has all his windows, sort of

http://www.trinitylutherannyc100.org/index.html


http://www.trinitylutherannyc100.org/2007Events.htm#windows

 

Last edited on Sun Nov 1st, 2009 03:11 pm by Vic

Krueger
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OK thanks Vic.

Judy K
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Vic wrote:
http://mostholytrinityyonkers.com/8627.html

photo gallery has lots of stained glass


Vic, I have been curious as to who made the windows at Immaculate Conception Catholic Church in Fairbanks Alaska. I found no signature anywhere. The parish does not know, but they were installed in 1926 and made in the lower 48 somewhere.

A tourist told the pastor they had seen these exact same windows in a small church in Canada.

Now , looking at the windows at the Most Holy Trinity in Yonkers, I see the same pattern of St Cecilia , as we have here. The painting is very different. Were there basic patterns shared between studios or is this a clue to finding out who did our windows.

1. Yonkers Photo

Attached Image (viewed 699 times):

P1040123-1.JPG.jpeg

Last edited on Mon Nov 2nd, 2009 09:24 pm by Judy K

Judy K
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Fairbanks St Cecilia

Attached Image (viewed 750 times):

PA071600.jpg

Last edited on Mon Nov 2nd, 2009 09:25 pm by Judy K

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http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.stcecilia.edu/arts/isb/arts083.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.stcecilia.edu/arts/beauty.php&usg=__FbbWntZPzASiqR_rmqzEmYvGHfA=&h=270&w=170&sz=29&hl=en&start=67&sig2=rdJ02rUqume2O6gXq_uTdA&um=1&tbnid=ksuY7WQjjd_i2M:&tbnh=113&tbnw=71&prev=/images%3Fq%3DSt%2BCecilia%2Bstained%2Bglass%26ndsp%3D20%26hl%3Den%26rls%3Dcom.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox%26rlz%3D1I7GGIT_en%26sa%3DN%26start%3D60%26um%3D1&ei=XaHvSuziDMjulQetxonxCA

Attached Image (viewed 585 times):

st ceclia.jpg

Vic
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http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.mhtbrooklyn.org/Window%2520Images/cecilia02.JPG&imgrefurl=http://www.mhtbrooklyn.org/en_windowsonclerestoryleft.htm&usg=__l52wDzc0yVmFLLj_jfpHoypIo64=&h=591&w=230&sz=38&hl=en&start=144&sig2=RnegMx9fWSDv_h3qTOuIjQ&um=1&tbnid=df6EOa5V48W9VM:&tbnh=135&tbnw=53&prev=/images%3Fq%3DSt%2BCecilia%2Bstained%2Bglass%26ndsp%3D20%26hl%3Den%26rls%3Dcom.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox%26rlz%3D1I7GGIT_en%26sa%3DN%26start%3D140%26um%3D1&ei=E6LvSpLXO8_SlAed9cT6CA

Attached Image (viewed 833 times):

st. cecilia02.jpg

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AND THE WINNER IS

http://74.125.93.132/search?q=cache:4o3-Au0hm3AJ:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ecstasy_of_St._Cecilia_(Raphael)+st+cecilia+german+painting&cd=6&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

Attached Image (viewed 727 times):

st Cecilia_Raphael.jpg

Judy K
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The first three are identical. The dress, the neckline, the sleeve, the split in the apron, everything.
So was it a famous painting they thought they had the right to copy
or a pattern that was sold to many studios?
I did not find it as a painting on google, yet!

Last edited on Tue Nov 3rd, 2009 03:09 am by Judy K

Judy K
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Great ! You found it! It started out as a painting. :)

So much for copy right laws at that time :)

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Raphael and his buddies are a good place to start for score marterials for this type of window

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This painting is loaded with great symbols! Thank you.

The small cello reminds me of Peter McGrain's violin with the snake head on it :)

So where do the plagiarism laws begin and end? Seriously!
If I copy a 500year old painting exactly, it is okay?
But if I copy a modern one in 'essence' I can be sued?

I don't copy others work or photographs for that fear, but my camera runs constantly.
Anyone could wind up in a panel or painting of mine,
and not even know it is them when I am finished with it.
But what about other people who need more material to work from.
Can they legally copy old masters paintings and not get in trouble?

Last edited on Tue Nov 3rd, 2009 05:40 pm by Judy K

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Judy, you've tapped into a big subject for me and a touchy one.

All the works of the renaissance masters are in the public domain, and may be used
in any manner whatsoever, legally and ethically.
The same was true in Birkenstock's
time, as well as in Tiffany's time, since Tiffany designers cribbed from renaissance
masters as well.
 
For that matter, all the works of Van Gogh, Manet and Cezanne are
in the public domain now. You can copy and refer to them at will.


Some may see the practice of using the work of earlier artists as cheating or as some sort
of artistic plagiarism, or just lazy, but they are certainly not copyright violations.


Copyright law was created not just to protect the individual artist against people stealing
their work, but also to protect the idea of the public domain, that eventually all works can
be accessed and used by everyone.


In terms of copying or using contemporary work, it does get much more complex. It
centers on the concept of 'Fair Use'. Believe it or not, this wiki entry is one of the simpler
explanations of fair use that I've seen. Most descriptions involve seriously tortured
legalese.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use 

Since there are no clear simple rules for what constitutes fair use, many choose to just use
nothing, or feel that they have to ask permission for any and all uses they make, to be safe.
I think that's going too far. And recently, I think it's gone way too far.


Picasso late in his life did a whole series of paintings based on other paintings, mostly by
Manet and Delacroix, I think. He called them dialogues. I
think every artist should have a
right to dialogue with other works of art, including present works. I
've always included, in
various ways, other works of art in my artwork. Sometimes it's obvious, sometimes it's
not. In any case, it's simply a part of the landscape that I am depicting in my work.
Ansel Adams had his dialogue with the natural landscape, I have my dialogue with the
culture I see around me, including other people's artwork. Some may disagree with that,
or feel it's unethical,  but I came to terms with it long ago, and create my work guilt-free.



Last edited on Tue Nov 3rd, 2009 06:36 pm by tkrepcio

Judy K
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Thanks Tom,

This is one of those ever irritating subjects.
I am glad to hear about the public domain idea again. I had forgotten it.

I understand the idea of protecting a living artists ability to make money
with his work without having some one else steal it.
That makes total sense. But I also think that there are no new ideas out there,
and often we go way to far trying to protect our ideas, now days.

Copying other painters works was once a very important way to study art.
It is still a good idea, but now we fear some legal battle if we do not immediately burn it.
But then how can you go back and learn from your mistakes.
Selling your studies would be wrong, of course.

====

Sorry for taking this thread so far off course.
Moderator if you want to devide it into a new thread that's fine.
I was just surprised to see the identical St Cecilia's.

Last edited on Tue Nov 3rd, 2009 06:44 pm by Judy K

Mary Clerkin Higgins
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I agree with Tom.  As artists we're supposed to be having a dialogue, not just with our times and contemporaries, but with those that came before us.  Our cultural heritage includes many images that were used over and over again to depict certain stories (The Creation, Adam and Eve, etc, etc.) For centuries these stories were told with little variation from artist to artist, decade to decade, and that consistency was seen as a positive thing for the continuity of artistic tradition and was also helpful for communicating with their viewing audience, who knew the stories.

One of the best ways to learn from artists we admire is to try to incorporate what we like  of their work in ours.  It's a great way to understand how and why certain techniques and materials work.  That's why it's important for students to copy as much as they can while they develop their own vision and style.  And there's always something to learn from the masters.

However, if you're only using other's ideas and bringing nothing to the table yourself , then it is akin to making forgeries.  We already have Rafael, Tiffany, LeCompte, and Schaffrath, and we should learn all we can from them, each speaks to us in their own way, but then we have to come up with something to say as artists.  We don't have to be radical, it's a big world and there is plenty of room for a wide variety of styles, as long as the work is interesting.  Was it Picasso who said - "when you steal, steal from the best!"  And then make it your own.



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I agree with the need for consistency in the telling of the stories by using the same art work.
Icons were copied exactly for just that reason.
Now we have to know the stories better to recognize the symbols in the art work.

Today another mystery was solved by looking at the windows Maria posted from Cincinnati's Catholic clearing house.
I had an unidentified saint window in Fairbanks. One very similar to it showed up in Cincinnati's collection.
It is St. Ignatius of Loyola. So I expect I will find this painting too, sooner or later.

So is copying from the masters paintings like iconography for the last century of window designers?
Is there a source or book that clues us to which paintings were the preferred image of each saint?

GregWitul
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Henry  Birkenstock  Born: 1865 Died: July 31, 1912. In 1901 executed windows for Greenwood Baptist Church in Brooklyn NY. Married to Bina Birkenstock.  Had two daughters, Martha J. E. (Birkenstock) Flocke, other daughters name unknown, and two sons Henry  Birkenstock Jr, and William Birkenstock. Died from a brain abscess.  

Studio: 107 Stevens Ave., Mt. Vernon NY.

Home:135 North High St. Mt. Vernon NY.

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Great question, Judy.

Often, I'm in a church and realize that I'd probably appreciate the windows more it I understood the content better.

- Tod

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Thank you Greg for the great info on Henry Birkenstock.

Thanks Tod,

I chewed on this subject quite a bit last week,
and feasted on hundreds of window photos on line.

The simplest solution, I decided, to be sure the art conveys as much of its message
as possible is to be sure I add the name of the saint to my window designs.
Even if it is tiny and almost hidden. Those who know the stories will get so much more out of the artwork.
Those who do not know that saint will either dig up the story, or not care anyway.

I am not comfortable with copying other peoples work just to be sure the saint is recognised.
I love the old masters paintings, there is much to learn there,
but to just do copies would become depressing.

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Apparently the Second Reform Church at 940 Summit Ave, in Jersey City, has a "rare" full cycle of Henry Berkenstock windows. No photos avail that I can find. I live nearby and may go have a look. ZG

Last edited on Wed Jun 1st, 2022 05:10 pm by ZachGreen


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